Ecstasy for Auties

[mellowtigger]

I've mentioned now and again that I'd like to try the street drug named "Ecstasy".

I've mentioned monkeyspheres and the fact (in a thread I won't link here) that my monkeysphere is probably limited to a population of only 1 person.  I don't have a boyfriend, so my attention for that one available spot is currently devoted to my pet cat instead.  More publicly, I state unequivocally that "I am a loner."

I can be passionate and intense.  It's been known to happen with real live people, even!  (Would that it happen again!  *laugh*)  Normally, it happens over "Important Issues" of intellect such as new discoveries in science or new insights of interrelatedness.  I spend most of my life emotionally reserved and observational but with occasional outbursts of intense involvement and absolute commitment/certainty.  This duality is a significant part of my self-chosen name, "The Mellow Tigger".  I have a very difficult time imagining myself "normal".  Would I even be "me" if I hugged friends, smooched every potential lover, and caroused with everyone I met?  Huggable, smiling, talkative, friendly... popular.  Is there really a version of "me" that's popular?

When other people try Ecstasy, it makes them bliss out while liking everybody around them.  When pushed to the same extremes, though, it makes autistic people.... well... "normal" (neurotypical standard).  It's not just anecdotal stories, although there are plenty of those available.  The science is beginning to confirm it too, looking specifically at Ecstasy's role in regulating oxytocin in the brain.

One recent study (with a population sample of only 13 adults, too small to be reliable) tried a nasal spray of oxytocin.  The autistic subjects were better able to recognize people, pay attention to people's faces, and play a simple game of coordination with people (tossing a ball).  In a previous study (also with a small population of only 16 teenagers) with nasal spray, they found that autistic kids were better able to read the emotion in other people's faces.

Some people are taking this news to suggest that autistic children be given the spray as a kind of temporary crutch.  They suggest using it to provide kids with years to interact "normally" with other people.  This medicated time would give their brains a chance to train in typical emotional/social development.  Afterwards, with their neurons successfully wired for neurotypical behavior, the oxytocin could be removed.  That's the idea, anyway.

I dunno that I could ever advocate for altering someone else's brain.  I am, however, quite curious enough to experiment upon myself.  :)

Not around strangers, I think.  I'm sure that like country dancing and other intimate endeavors, I would want to have a boyfriend first before trying out these particular adventures.  I know, I know... I always get it backwards.  Maybe doing Ecstasy while country dancing would help me to find someone!  *laugh*  No.  Honesty demands that anyone interested in me should do so knowing fully what "me" really entails.

If he can travel that far into my world first... maybe then I would try stepping out farther into his world?  Knowing that there are "mechanical crutches" available to help with the difficult training, it does make the idea a new and interesting prospect.

Comments

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

oxytocin ("Ecstasy")

Ecstasy is 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine. This is the first time I've heard anyone refer to oxytocin as Ecstasy.

[mellowtigger]

I always get confused when trying to track down the various names and interactions of these things. This article seems to tie them all together, though.

http://www.mdma.net/oxytocin-release/index.html

Am I mis-stating? Oxytocin is the chemical-specific brain signal, but MDMA (ecstasy) uses the same mechanism?

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

MDMA triggers the release of oxytocin, and also triggers the release of serotonin (actually, there's some evidence that it starts the serotonin reuptake "pump" running backward). This bit of the abstract you linked is key:

The oxytocin receptor antagonist tocinoic acid (20 mug, i.c.v.) had no effect on social behavior when given alone but significantly attenuated the facilitation of social interaction produced by MDMA (5 mg/kg).

So what they're saying here is that when you administer tocinoic acid, that blocks oxytocin receptors so that oxytocin can't get in and do whatever it does. At typical oxytocin levels, tocinoic acid doesn't do much (because we're not usually flooded with oxytocin), but combined with administration of MDMA, tocinoic acid diminishes the higher sociability seen with MDMA. So this implies that MDMA is either promoting the release of oxytocin or preventing its reuptake.

Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, the 5-HT mentioned in the abstract -- there are several types of serotonin receptors, 5-HT1A is just one of them) is definitely also involved in MDMA's mechanism of action; SSRIs block the effect of MDMA.

[mellowtigger]

Yes, you are right. I was using oxytocin=Ecstasy in the original post, which is wrong. Ecstasy does other things, but oxytocin proliferation is one of its effects.

I will go back to edit the original and hopefully avoid using the internet to spread confusion. Until someone reads this thread anyway, which (hopefully) will make no sense when compared against the new post. :)

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

FWIW, if you were to experiment on yourself and could get some of that oxytocin nasal spray, I think that would be a more sustainable long-term experiment than MDMA. MDMA can be a bit hard on the body (elevates temperature and can cause dehydration; can also make people a bit jittery), and its effects are fairly broad-spectrum. It's being investigated (outside the US) as a therapeutic aid for PTSD, but even then the actual use thereof is pretty infrequent -- certainly no more than twice a month.

[mellowtigger]

Yes, I've read the stories about what Ecstasy can do to a body (bad stuff).

A few months ago, I was emailing with an autistic Canadian who experimented (only once back then) with Ecstasy. He confirmed the stories about its effects (good stuff).

The nasal spray is a really interesting idea. I see that there's already a website devoted to selling the stuff online.
http://oxytocinnasalsprays.com/

They mention autism, but they're obviously marketing the stuff as a "scent" to alter the behavior of other people to make them trust the wearer! Brain modification from a distance. How repugnant!

[maradydd.livejournal.com]

Given the lack of FDA oversight I'm suspicious as to whether there's anything at all apart from water in those bottles. The site doesn't say anything about what the concentration of oxytocin is supposed to be, either. Very suspicious!

Sigma-Aldrich sells oxytocin in lyophilized powder form ($13.50 for 250IU, which could presumably be reconstituted with water and used as a spray), as well as in 97% pure form as the acetate salt, which is quite a bit more expensive. I haven't read the scientific papers on the oxytocin nasal spray in detail, though, so I don't know how much would be needed to replicate their experiment.

[furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com]

Apparently there's a pharmaceutical version made by Novartis, intended for use around childbirth - it's called Syntocinon. That's probably what it claims to be, and already in the desired nasal spray form... though apparently it's not sold here in the US.

[litch.livejournal.com]

I don't like ecstasy.

I've tried it 4-5 times and it does make me more effusive, intimate, and tactile. But not in a way I like to recall afterwards. I lose a level of self-control I really prefer to maintain and do things like hit on people I am not into, act inapproriately, become obsessed with cheap and tawdry crap. It's like I lose a 1/3 of my IQ and the ability to recognize it.

The physical sensations are not particularly pleasant either; jaw clenching, tachycardia, excessive sweating, odd body sensations. And one of the most annoying things is I can't get an erection while rolling, though considering some of the people I might have used it with that's probably a good thing in retrospect, it's just fundamentally bothersome.

I like LSD, psylocibin, and pot a great deal, alcohol in some level of mderation but I have no desire to ever do X again.

[pi3832.livejournal.com]

Honesty demands that anyone interested in me should do so knowing fully what "me" really entails.

I don't think that's how "it's done," in general.

[pi3832.livejournal.com]

Brain modification from a distance. How repugnant!

Pheromones?

Indeed, couldn't you argue that physical attractiveness alone alters your brain chemistry, from a distance? Through time even, thanks to video.

[dangerdhotrod.livejournal.com]

i've done ecstasy a fair amount throughout my life, and i think it's great. but it is really something that is super intense, and think of it a learning experience. I think it is great to see that it is possible to feel certain ways that normally we don't.

From my experience environment and who you are around are a huge factor in how it goes. It's all context and trust. I think the dance music thing works really well with it, most people who do it should just dance and dance and feel good and not think too much. Drink lots of water, get your body moving, dance all night, go home eat an apple, take a bath. Take a nap, next day go for a walk, eat some yogurt. Simple things like that can feel really good, you get great body awareness. If it's not super intense you can talk to people in a way you normally wouldn't, and social fears like that of rejection don't happen, it's a very carefree of interacting with people. You can think when it starts to wear off. You can have some very lucid objective kinds of thinking about yourself and your life.

That said, I know what the person above is talking about jaw clenching, sweating, feeling jittery...I think all of these things can be mitigated if you are with people and as soon as you feel anything negative tell the people you are with and immediately do something about it. If you find your jaw clenching eat something chewy, if you're uncomfortable physically (like sweating or feeling hot) go outside, if you don't want to be around people go somewhere alone and vice versa. Recognizing problems and reacting right away can turn around negative feelings really quickly.

All this is just my own experience. I don't know how great of an experiment it would make though for autistic people in terms of behavior change in a "now the behavior is more inline with 'normal'" people. Here's why - while you're on e you might think that all your interactions with people were great and awesome. Maybe they were. But maybe to some people (especially people not on e) you were super freaky and tweaked out looking. your pupils were super big and your jaw kept clenching, that sort of thing. i still think it's a great drug and relatively harmless to do it every once and awhile, but it can be very subjective as well. So I would do an experiment where I gave a bunch of autistic people e and have a dance party, but I wouldn't give an autistic person e and then tell him to go socialize somewhere where everyone wasn't on e. I would say as a general rule don't do it unless most of the people you're around are also doing it, because then it's not going to be very good.

Obviously I have a lot to say about it, if you ever want to talk about it ask me!